(no subject)

[green_queen]

I've been interested to read people's reactions to Joss casting:
a) more Whedon alums and
b) BSG alums
in 'Dollhouse', particularly the negative ones. I've read views that they don't want to see too many BSG actors but don't care about the Jossverse ones, and views that people don't like it when directors/creatives always work with the same actors.

Nepotism is the heart and soul of Hollywood. Film geeks are constantly talking about great directors and their muses. I think right now some of the best examples are Tim Burton with Helena Bonham Carter and Johnny Depp, Ridley Scott and Russell Crowe, or Martin Scorcese and Leonardo DiCaprio. Sometimes, a director and an actor find in each other someone who just opens up their creative world; who inspires them to be better, each pushing the other to greater heights. Sometimes they just really like each other. I think in TV this happens even more because there's just more interaction there.

Here's my point: it's possible that Joss works better when he is writing for someone who inspires him creatively, and that we will never see these actors better than when they're working with him. Don't we all like to work with people we know and trust to do a good job? Weren't we all just floored by the performance Alan Tudyk pulled out as Alpha? They wanted to avoid favouritism in the early Dollhouse episodes, and look where that got them! As for the BSG people - they're fucking awesome actors. By the time they're finished on Dollhouse, they could just be standout bit players in an overall piece - or they might be so good you'll forget all about Battlestar.

Uh, so that's my rant for the day, and I'm going to go finish this episode of Leverage and go to bed now. Night.
Green Queen

Comments

[padabee.livejournal.com]

I didn't even know that was a point to discuss or even be upset about. o.O

[grrliz.livejournal.com]

I don't know, I sometimes get sick of the same actors/directors working together all the time. I'm starting to get sick of Johnny Depp / Tim Burton collaborations and think that their creative partnership might benefit from not working together for a while. Scorsese and Robert DeNiro worked together on several films in a row to the point where they had to take a break for like eight years because they had just exhausted each other creatively.

I don't really have an opinion on how this affects Dollhouse since I don't watch that show nor did I watch BSG or other Joss Whedon productions.

[green-queen.livejournal.com]

I don't think that Joss has exhausted his options with any of the Jossverse actors he's getting on Dollhouse (except maybe Eliza Dushku, but that rant has already been ranted in this post, and Eliza was the one who came to Joss with the show in the first place). He's pretty much only using people he's worked with in just one production before.

[subtle--sarcasm.livejournal.com]

I didn't realize that this was something people had a problem with in the case of Dollhouse O.o Why would one not be happy that talented actors one loved in another fandom now join the Jossverse? And it's not like he ONLY uses actors he's worked with before. Enver's acting skills, for example, have been one of the (if not the single) most impressive things on Dollhouse, and he was brand new.

I don't see why mingling new talent with people you know and trust would ever be a bad thing. And in the case of BSG actors, as you said, they're amazing actors! Why would he NOT use them simply because he already has one person from the show on his team? Michael Hogan's Tigh is one of my favorite character performances in all of Television, why would it bother me when an actor like that joins another show I love.

I just don't understand fandom sometimes.

[green-queen.livejournal.com]

I think one of the reasons they're complaining is because Enver and Dichen are so good, and there may not be as great an opportunity to see new talent like theirs if he keeps giving work to people he already knows. Although with Hogan, at least, it seems like he'll only be doing a small role - like Matt Keeslar.

I don't know, I'm just of the opinion that a) Joss knows talent and b) the most talented person should get the job, so if Joss has decided that someone is the right person for a role, then they're the right person.

[subtle--sarcasm.livejournal.com]

Hm. Okay. I think I would understand that, to a point, with someone I trust less. But, as you said, Joss has proved more than enough times that he knows what he's doing when casting his shows.

[entwashian.livejournal.com]

I've been kind of bummed we haven't seen any of the smaller "hat trick" actors yet! Carlos Jacott, please!

[subtle--sarcasm.livejournal.com]

YES! And Jonathan Woodward!!

[green-queen.livejournal.com]

I second Jonathan Woodward! I love that drunken bastard.

[zombie_boogie.livejournal.com]

I agree that I don't see the problem with using the same actors over and over again if the actors are talented and they inspire the director/writer. I think sometimes it helps the creative juices flow to work with someone new, but I think especially with television it helps to have a comfortable existing working relationship. My only problem is when a director and actor(s) work continuously together to the point where it stunts their creativity or their product becomes monotonous (some have argued this about Depp/Burton but I disagree. Burton's aesthetic isn't going to change and the stories he has told with Depp as his lead have been different IMO).

The only thing I don't like about Joss using the same actors is I really, really don't think Eliza Dushku is talented enough to be the lead in her own show (especially one that requires her character to have many different personas). Granted, I've only see the first four or so episodes of Dollhouse so maybe her performance improved.

[green-queen.livejournal.com]

I don't mind the Tim Burton & Johnny Depp partnership. It seems more like Johnny just fits in with what Tim's doing more often than not. In fact, I think it might be getting better (I'm really only basing that on the fact that Sweeney Todd was a vastly better movie than Willy Wonka was.)

Eliza doesn't really improve a whole lot, but the show improves tenfold from episode 6 on, and Epitaph One is a revelation in TV-making so I really recommend you see the season out.

With Eliza, the problem I think is that there are two kinds of good actors. The first is the chameleon, like Philip Seymour Hoffman, Sean Penn, Gary Oldman, Cate Blanchett, those sorts of people, who totally just disappear into a role and become someone else. I think Enver Gjokaj (Victor) and Dichen Lachman (Sierra) both have that ability, in spite of their striking looks. But the other kind of great actor is a force of personality - like Robert DeNiro or some of the classic actors, Humphrey Bogart (and I would argue people like Robert Downey Jr. and Shia LaBeouf) - and they don't work that way. They have tics and tells that let you know they're always that actor, but they have this amazing charisma and strength of personality so that you become really invested in them and they can sell you emotion, sometimes a lot better than the chameleon-type actors can. I'd say Eliza's more the second type of actor than the first type, but to play a doll you NEED to be the chameleon actor. It seems like in the second season this is going to become less of an issue.

[zombie_boogie.livejournal.com]

I have heard that Dollhouse improves exponentially later in the season, so I'll probably downloaded the rest of the season to give it another chance. Hey, at least it will help improve my performance at whedonland if nothing else.

I really liked your description of Chameleon vs. Force of Personality actors (I would say Jack Nicholson definitely falls into the latter category for me. He's never not Jack on the screen). I think my problem with Eliza's performance on DH is that she can't do the chameleon thing, you're right (I never had a problem with her performances on BtVS or Angel). The other thing I found irritating is that when Echo wakes up she speaks in this... weird, stilted baby-doll voice that just drives me batty, though I suppose that is part of the characterization of a "wiped" Active.

[green-queen.livejournal.com]

Every week from episode 6 onwards is a game-changer. I've never been so excited week to week for a TV show in my life, because I had no idea what to expect next. And then Epitaph One blew me COMPLETELY away.

ETA: And wait until you get to see Enver Gjokaj really break out. I think at this point you'd only have seen him as Victor and Lubov, but once he gets going...that guy is the ultimate chameleon. He doesn't have to even change his clothes and he'll be someone totally different. If he doesn't become a big star, it'll be a damn shame.

Jack Nicholson's a prime example of a force of personality actor! Forgot about him. See, I think if you see Eliza in separate roles you'll buy her as people with different personalities, but with those certain...movements and speech patterns and just that Eliza style. I've seen her in a lot of different stuff, and she is terrific, but she doesn't lose herself in the character.

Yeah, the wiped dolls in general are so creepy, though.

[truffle-shuffle.livejournal.com]

I tried to post this last night but LJ was down, so I'm late to the discussion...

I really can't understand any criticism about Joss bringing on BSG actors in the vein of "working with the same people over and over" when Joss hasn't worked with the BSG people. He's a fan, just like us, and he's in a position to take these great actors that may not have been seen by a large population of people and put them on a show where they might be (or, sadly, won't be seen by a large population of people, but the opportunity is there). So, where's the problem?

I also don't have a problem with him bringing on people from the Jossverse that we have missed, like Emma Caulfield or anyone from Firefly or Nick Brendon (who, incidentally, could have played the role that Jordan Bridges played in "Haunted"; that guy was SO Nick-like that I was surprised he wasn't cast). Maybe casting James Marsters would fall flat - he's so Spike that even on Torchwood I couldn't fully buy him as Captain John - but does anyone honestly think that someone like Gina Torres wouldn't be kick ass in whatever role she might be given on anything Joss does? It's a silly argument. I don't think that Enver or Dichen or even Fran will be given less to work with. If we're lucky, it'll be Eliza that's scaled back to give everyone more screen and story time.

On a related note, I still haven't seen Epitaph One. The download that _allshallfade sent me wouldn't open, and I don't know where online to look for those types of things. Clearly I NEED to see it a.s.a.p. Who knows when I'll be able to purchase the DVDs. Maybe I can Netflix it now that the DVDs are out.

[green-queen.livejournal.com]

The BSG complaint seems to be more that he likes BSG so he's taking all the actors, and people don't like the idea of seeing all these people they're used to working across from each other as different characters to what they're used to. I think. I'm not really sure, as I find it kind of a stupid complaint.

Yeah, since the people he's recasting are people we haven't seen in a while and playing such interesting roles (I'm talking about Alan and Amy, and I'm sure Alexis and, if she has the time, Summer, will be just as amazing.) If he gets Gina back I'd be over the moon. I agree with you about James Marsters. I'd love to see Amber, too, but I'm biased :P

Here's hoping that the new system a) has a bit less Echo-on-engagements and b) means that, with Caroline becoming more in control, will have more of a character focus for Eliza so she doesn't have to try to become different people (see above diatribe in comments).

YOU HAAAAVE TO SEE EPITAPH ONE. RIGHT NOW (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8NSUHVL0).

[truffle-shuffle.livejournal.com]

That's like saying Simon Pegg and Nick Frost should stop being in movies together because you prefer them as Shaun and Ed. Or that Judd Apatow should stop casting Paul Rudd and Seth Rogan and Jonah Hill and Leslie Mann in his movies because they're always in his movies. Filmmakers and TV showrunners alike like to and prefer to work with people they enjoy working with, period. It's a stupid argument. And another reason why I stay on the fringes of fandom and just find out about this stuff from you. :) I get too heated.

THANK YOU FOR THE DOWNLOAD. I'll let you know if I have a problem. It could be this computer for all I know. If not, my backup is that I've got the DVD ready to ship from Netflix as soon as I mail out the Spaced disc I just watched today.