(no subject)

[green_queen]

On the characterisation of John Winchester:

Why is it he's so often characterised as an abusive, alcoholic father? I think the reunion scene in Shadow tells us at least two things that people seem to have forgotten since his return in Dead Man's Blood: one, that he loves and is protective of his sons, and two, that he is perfectly capable of being physically affectionate with them. Another episode people seem to overlook a lot in their characterisation of John is Home. Dean is obviously very comfortable with his father - comfortable enough to show weakness by crying while leaving the phone message - and John knew enough to come and make sure they were OK when Dean begged him to.

The fact that he didn't show up in Faith is another sore point for me. Nobody seems to remember what Sam's message to John actually said. He said that Dean was sick and the doctors said there was nothing they could do, but not to worry about it because he would do 'whatever it takes' to get Dean better. He also gives no indication that Dean's illness isn't supernatural. Now, okay, John probably should've checked, but by all fan accounts one would think John knew exactly what had happened to Dean and have come running to his deathbed.

Granted, I haven't seen Salvation or Devil's Trap yet, but I've read most of John's lines from the episodes. I'm not saying John is a perfect person or a perfect father but for fuck's sake, he isn't THAT bad. There is NO indication that he would ever abuse his sons.

Anyway.

I'm sick and it sucks.

ETA: THERE IS NO HENCE WHY. Hence means "for this reason" or "therefore." Which is like saying 'which is why.' Saying 'hence why' is like saying 'ATM machine.'

YOUR AND YOU'RE ARE DIFFERENT. Stop using the interchangably!

AUGH.

I need to just stop reading fanfiction, don't I?

I LOVE THIS THREAD. People bitching about their grammar pet peeves. Hell yes.

ETA2: Snakes on a Comic Book!

Green Queen

Comments

[truffle-shuffle.livejournal.com]

I have those episodes...do you want me to upload them for you?

[green-queen.livejournal.com]

No that's okay, thanks though. I'm looking forward to seeing them on TV over the next two weeks.

Also, I got the wrong episode. I haven't seen Salvation or Devil's Trap, not Dead Man's Blood.

[truffle-shuffle.livejournal.com]

So you haven't seen the finale? That's interesting. I thought you had.

[green-queen.livejournal.com]

No, just read about it a lot.

[truffle-shuffle.livejournal.com]

I haven't read anything about it. I'm avoiding all fics and any discussions about it. I like not knowing what's going to happen.

[green-queen.livejournal.com]

*shrugs* I was reading Supernatural fanfiction and meta and such before I saw the show. It's the reason I watched it. I probably shouldn't, since it means I'm frequently *disappointed* when watching the episodes, but oh well. Dean's pretty.

[truffle-shuffle.livejournal.com]

I've saved a bunch of fics that are post-"Devil's Trap" to read once I've seen the episode. I'm weird about spoilers now. I don't know why.

Dean's the prettiest.

[snuffkin.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying John is a perfect person or a perfect father but for fuck's sake, he isn't THAT bad. There is NO indication that he would ever abuse his sons.

Amen. I got into the biggest fight with a good friend just because she thinks John is an abusive asshole and I just don't think so. This is like the "Who sired Spike?"-thing *lol*.

[green-queen.livejournal.com]

...not really. Joss changed his canon because he preferred the idea of Dru siring Spike. John has never actually changed, he's just shown different sides to himself.

[snuffkin.livejournal.com]

ah yeah... I know, what I wanted to say is that it's one of those things I could argue over with my friends for hours (even if it's canon. I still don't like it *g*). Weird, how fandom things lead to the biggest arguments I have with them.

[crumpeteer.livejournal.com]

While John might have been hard on the liquor according to himself and Sam, I can't at all think he was abusive. He's a jerk, but not abusive. The times we see him in flashback he seems pretty functional and doesn't have a bottle in his hand, so he seems to have gotten that under control. Badfic writers have an easy time of making him the bad guy though.

John's main problem is his obession. I can forgive him to a degree and have defended him in the past, but he does do something at the end of Devil's Trap that makes me really mad at him. Not abusive, just callous.

[green-queen.livejournal.com]

The implication I got from the mentions of John and alcohol is more that he didn't drink often but when he did he drank hard. Maybe that's just me.

I think he makes a lot of mistakes, but there's another way of looking at this. John Winchester is one of very few men to discover what's really out there, what's really hurting people, and made it his mission to stop that from happening. It's not ALL about getting the demon that killed Mary, even though that's his driving force.

There's also a lot of unspoken love in the family. Sam is infuriated with his father, but he never fears him. Dean obeys his orders out of respect more than fear.

He just doesn't place any value on his own life (like Dean.) He doesn't think about what Sam killing him would do to Dean, or to Sam, because he doesn't understand how much they care about him. He's lost that self-preservation.

[blondiusmaximus.livejournal.com]

UGH AGREED. I especially hate when they write John as an alcoholic. The man's an ex-marine with two little soldiers, he knows better than anyone that to get drunk is to lose control and to lose the ability to be ready in any situation. It's not in character.

[joyeuxnoel.livejournal.com]

Popped this way from the spnnewsletter.

I'll admit, Sam does repeatedly mention their father drinking, in the negative sense, on about three occassions so I can see how the alcoholic trend works its way in there. But "Nightmare" probably makes the best argument that John wasn't abusive because the dialogue at the end pretty much negates it entirely, imho.

[green-queen.livejournal.com]

I didn't get the sense that John was so much an alocholic as that he only drank occasionally, and when he drank, he drank hard to forget for a while.

The thing is, the boys don't fear their father. Dean respects him, Sam infuriates him and is infuriated by him in equal parts, but they've never flinched away from a confrontation with him if it was needed. It just doesn't click.

Plus he's so gorgeous. LOL.

[fading-spark.livejournal.com]

I agree completely. I don't think he had the best or easiest reletionship with his sons - and that's understandable, he lost his wife and was out for revenge (which Sam of all people should understand). But he wasn't a horrible father. I think that Nightmare showed that John was actually a fairly decent father considering everything - the boys could've been alot worse off.

But yeah, enough rambling. Thanks for posting this. =D

[krisomniac.livejournal.com]

(here from spnnewsletter)

Count me in with everyone else, that there is not evidence in canon that John was an abusive, or even all that bad a father.

1) Sam uses the excuse of John's drinking binges to excuse himself in the pilot. This may or may not have any basis in fact, as he can't very well tell Jess that dad is off humting ghosts. The pilot also shows the first of his seemingly inexcusable and inexplicable lapses in consideration; why he left Dean without a word, without a 'don't worry' or 'I've got a lead; I'll be gone for a few months' is completely beyond me. I secretly believe that he finally left Dean the 'we're all in danger' message to incite Dean to go get Sam. But that's just speculation.

2) Phantom Traveler, Sam learns that Dad was actually proud of him.

3) Bugs, we learn that maybe Sam remembers his dad through the eyes of an angry teen, and that maybe (like the real estate speculator) John did love his kids and Dean was right all along.

4) Home. You're absolutely right that John comes as soon as he hears Dean's broken message on the phone. In this one, though, his behaviour completely confuses me. The excuse he gives for not seeing the boys at the end--is so many kinds of lame. There must be something else going on. Or else the writers just needed his lameness as a weak plot device. (Also, after what Missouri tells him, I don't see why he's so surprised in Salvation that Sam is having visions.)

5) Faith. In this one, I'm with you a hundred percent. If not for the tone of his voice and delivery, I would've heard Sam's message and assumed everything was under control. I blame John a lot less for failing to pick up on this one. That said, it still breaks my heart in Salvation, when Dean reminds John that he remained silent when he (Dean) was dying.

6) Nightmare. I think this is the best evidence that John really did care for the boys in his own way, and that Sam is finally coming to terms with that.

7) Something Wicked. We see Dad dropping the hunt to protect his boys, taking every precaution when he leaves them alone, and scared shitless when the striga is preparing to feed off of Sammy. If that's not a caring (albeit kind of screwed up) dad, I don't know what is.

Umm. This was very long. I'm going to stop now. :) Sorry.

[jenish.livejournal.com]

Oh, I could KISS you. The characterisation of John Winchester as an alcoholic, abusive and/or just plain bad father is my biggest pet peeve of Supernatural fandom.